Post by vikingarcher on Jul 11, 2017 13:41:28 GMT 1
I’ve finally gotten around to trying to learn how to play MBT. I am very impressed with the game system. I have some comments regarding some of the details in the 1987 version of the game. By way of introduction, I was an American intelligence analyst in Germany during the time in question.
The dividing line between V Corps and VII Corps is wrong. It did not go straight back. I know that all of the on-line sources show this but it’s still wrong. If you do enough digging, you can get a bit of an idea where the dividing line should be (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/dd/Cold_War_units_in_West_Germany.png).
The Order of Battle shows one Canadian brigade in VII Corps. One of the German panzer divisions transferred one of their brigades to V Corps. I was at Corps level in 1983 REFORGER. I remember their place on the situation maps. I also remember the hand-over ceremony. I was later at national level and did not need to go to REFORGER. My now ex-wife and I used to go looking for “little green things” during REFORGER. (I know, weird hobby.) I remember getting into the area where the Americans has positioned the Bundeswehr troops. The Americans were easy to find. The Germans did a really good job of hiding. We found them but it wasn’t easy.
All GSFG units were Guards units. This information was classified but it’s been 30 years, we ought to be able to talk about it now.
Scenario 1 shows the Soviet CGF attacking 1st Infantry Division. Just as Scenario 3 shows GSFG going against the 11th Armored Cavalry Regiment (ACR), Scenario 1 should be going against 2nd ACR.
Chobham armor is basically a layer cake of armor types (http://below-the-turret-ring.blogspot.nl/2016/03/chobham-armor-facts-and-fiction-1.html). Chobham armor can’t be curved. This is the reason almost all modern tanks have a boxy look. The attached photos are from a Polish publication from about 1982 – 1983. These photos show a Chobham like armor in the upper Glacis. The turret front shows spaced armor but not Chobham.
1a.pdf (179.35 KB)2a.pdf (191.02 KB)3a.pdf (222.28 KB)
GSFG did not have T-72. The T-72 was given to Warsaw Pact forces and Russian 2nd echelon forces.
Russian troops were poorly trained, poorly led and poorly motivated (https://www.amazon.com/New-Red-Legions-Attitudinal-Contributions/dp/0313214964/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1499432337&sr=8-1&keywords=9780313214967) (This book was excellent. Richard Gabriel’s recent stuff is trash). I wish they would declassify the humint reports we used to get. If anything, Gabriel’s book understates just how badly trained and motivated the Russians actually were. We saw a further reduction in training levels as of about 1985 (the Soviet Empire was going bankrupt). By 1987 their training levels would have been rather mediocre. The game gives the Russians the same rating as the Americans. This was simply not the case.
As for Warsaw Pack countries, the Nationale Volksarmee was excellent. We were glad that they were never given first line equipment (i.e. T-72 not T-64). The Czechs were probable better than the Russians but they hated the Russians. I lived in the Czech Republic five years after the wall came down. I saw how much they hated the Russians. They hated the Russians for occupying their country. Their loyalty to the Russians would have been questionable. The Poles have a well-deserved reputation as excellent fighters. However, the Poles and Russians hate each other. This is an animosity that goes back centuries.
I didn’t see anything about stabilization systems. The NATO stabilization systems were quite effective.
One thing these simulations never take in to account is that as soon as the Warsaw Pact crossed the border, every German would have gotten into their cars and headed west. Every road ranging from Autobahn to farm road would have gone into gridlock. This would have made it very difficult for the divisions not stationed on the border to have gotten into position.
The dividing line between V Corps and VII Corps is wrong. It did not go straight back. I know that all of the on-line sources show this but it’s still wrong. If you do enough digging, you can get a bit of an idea where the dividing line should be (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/dd/Cold_War_units_in_West_Germany.png).
The Order of Battle shows one Canadian brigade in VII Corps. One of the German panzer divisions transferred one of their brigades to V Corps. I was at Corps level in 1983 REFORGER. I remember their place on the situation maps. I also remember the hand-over ceremony. I was later at national level and did not need to go to REFORGER. My now ex-wife and I used to go looking for “little green things” during REFORGER. (I know, weird hobby.) I remember getting into the area where the Americans has positioned the Bundeswehr troops. The Americans were easy to find. The Germans did a really good job of hiding. We found them but it wasn’t easy.
All GSFG units were Guards units. This information was classified but it’s been 30 years, we ought to be able to talk about it now.
Scenario 1 shows the Soviet CGF attacking 1st Infantry Division. Just as Scenario 3 shows GSFG going against the 11th Armored Cavalry Regiment (ACR), Scenario 1 should be going against 2nd ACR.
Chobham armor is basically a layer cake of armor types (http://below-the-turret-ring.blogspot.nl/2016/03/chobham-armor-facts-and-fiction-1.html). Chobham armor can’t be curved. This is the reason almost all modern tanks have a boxy look. The attached photos are from a Polish publication from about 1982 – 1983. These photos show a Chobham like armor in the upper Glacis. The turret front shows spaced armor but not Chobham.
1a.pdf (179.35 KB)2a.pdf (191.02 KB)3a.pdf (222.28 KB)
GSFG did not have T-72. The T-72 was given to Warsaw Pact forces and Russian 2nd echelon forces.
Russian troops were poorly trained, poorly led and poorly motivated (https://www.amazon.com/New-Red-Legions-Attitudinal-Contributions/dp/0313214964/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1499432337&sr=8-1&keywords=9780313214967) (This book was excellent. Richard Gabriel’s recent stuff is trash). I wish they would declassify the humint reports we used to get. If anything, Gabriel’s book understates just how badly trained and motivated the Russians actually were. We saw a further reduction in training levels as of about 1985 (the Soviet Empire was going bankrupt). By 1987 their training levels would have been rather mediocre. The game gives the Russians the same rating as the Americans. This was simply not the case.
As for Warsaw Pack countries, the Nationale Volksarmee was excellent. We were glad that they were never given first line equipment (i.e. T-72 not T-64). The Czechs were probable better than the Russians but they hated the Russians. I lived in the Czech Republic five years after the wall came down. I saw how much they hated the Russians. They hated the Russians for occupying their country. Their loyalty to the Russians would have been questionable. The Poles have a well-deserved reputation as excellent fighters. However, the Poles and Russians hate each other. This is an animosity that goes back centuries.
I didn’t see anything about stabilization systems. The NATO stabilization systems were quite effective.
One thing these simulations never take in to account is that as soon as the Warsaw Pact crossed the border, every German would have gotten into their cars and headed west. Every road ranging from Autobahn to farm road would have gone into gridlock. This would have made it very difficult for the divisions not stationed on the border to have gotten into position.
